[ARDF] No bans will stop progress. No progress will substitute brains.
Vadim Afonkin
vadim.afonkin at gmail.com
Wed Sep 27 04:40:57 PDT 2017
On some reason, I was out of the loop and just got those emails all at once.
I want to clarify few things - as Bruce already pointed this out -
1. no "magic" device will help you to outperform those better trained and more experienced.
2. It does provide valuable help - it calculates bearing, point to point distance and your offset from bearing line. I removed cross bearing calculations.
3. It does not violate R1 rules we following
4. Adding new restrictions will not do any good. 40 years ago we ran with bulky and heavy receivers, until someone built better one - much lighter and more sensitive. It definitely provided advantage. Should it be banned then? Same for using transistors instead of lamps, same for using electronic compass, and hey, why are you running in better shoes!? Let's ban shoes with spikes! They provide advantage! Do you have S-meter? It calculates distance! Go home!
No bans will stop progress. No progress will substitute brains.
Best Regards,
Vadim
> 27 сент. 2017 г., в 2:08, ardf-request at kkn.net написал(а):
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> Today's Topics:
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> 1. Re: Region 2 Rules Request - Q and A (Bruce)
> 2. Re: Region 2 Rules Request - Q and A (D Arnett)
> 3. Re: Region 2 Rules Request - Q and A (Mike (KA5CVH) Urich)
> 4. Re: Region 2 Rules Request - Q and A (Steve Stutman)
> 5. Re: Region 2 Rules Request - Q and A (Bruce)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2017 14:29:18 +1000
> From: Bruce <abruceperson at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [ARDF] Region 2 Rules Request - Q and A
> To: Charles Scharlau <charles.scharlau at gmail.com>,
> comments at ardf-r2.org, k0ov at homingin.com, 'Dale Hunt'
> <wb6byu at arrl.net>, ardf at kkn.net, Gerald Boyd <wb8wfk at covad.net>
> Message-ID: <74i7m5sjgmiu844o25bdmgdr.1506227358469 at email.android.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
> Depends if you consider the ability to guide the competitor towards where bearings cross as navigation assistance?
>
> Cheers,
> Bruce
>
> ---- Gerald Boyd wrote ----
>
>> Charles.
>>
>> Just a FYI
>>
>> I saw Vadim 80 meter receiver at the championships and it had a GPS patch
>> antenna on it.
>> I wonder what magic software he is running in the background?
>>
>> Since this device has been used in USA championships without any opposition
>> I think this opens the door on the digital devices questions.
>>
>> It's a receiver with some type of GPS enabled imbedded processor application
>> being used in national and a region 2 championships. I wonder what the
>> hidden features are. Does it give any navigation guidance?
>>
>> Pandora's box is now open.
>>
>> Dale, Joe this needs addressed.
>>
>> Jerry
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: ardf-bounces at kkn.net [mailto:ardf-bounces at kkn.net] On Behalf Of
>> Charles Scharlau
>> Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2017 11:54 AM
>> To: comments at ardf-r2.org; k0ov at homingin.com; Dale Hunt <wb6byu at arrl.net>;
>> ardf at kkn.net
>> Subject: [ARDF] Region 2 Rules Request - Q and A
>>
>> To address any confusion regarding the request for Region 2 ARDF rules that
>> include provisions for the use of approved apps in smartphones and similar
>> devices, I've created a list of "should-be-asked
>> questions":
>>
>> http://openardf.org/index.php/2017/07/30/smartphones-in-ardf-sbaq/
>>
>> Comments, questions, and suggestions can be made within that blog.
>> Just scroll down to "Leave a Reply" to post your comment. There is no need
>> to reply using email.
>>
>> I urge the Region 2 ARDF leadership to address this request with an open
>> mind, and a sense of urgency.
>>
>> 73,
>> Charles
>> NZ0I
>> _______________________________________________
>> ARDF mailing list
>> ARDF at kkn.net
>> http://www.kkn.net/mailman/listinfo/ardf
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> ARDF mailing list
>> ARDF at kkn.net
>> http://www.kkn.net/mailman/listinfo/ardf
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2017 16:37:27 -0400
> From: D Arnett <wb4suv at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [ARDF] Region 2 Rules Request - Q and A
> To: Robert Frey <rallenfrey at gmail.com>
> Cc: ardf at kkn.net, Charles Scharlau <charles.scharlau at gmail.com>,
> "K0OV, Joe Moell" <k0ov at homingin.com>, "Hunt, Dale" <wb6byu at arrl.net>
> Message-ID:
> <CAF1j+xNwve7K1cFpSnTvJmFdAW0Gv6Z_CH2SYZfgGeyMns-+Pg at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> I believe Ruth, Joe and Bob C also have one of these receivers. My
> understanding is that when you take a bearing to any number of transmitter
> up to five it will tell you how far to the left or right you are off from
> that stored bearing. I have not seen it in operation and could be wrong.
>
> Dick WB4SUV
>
>> On Sun, Sep 24, 2017 at 9:00 AM, Robert Frey <rallenfrey at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Yes and interesting that it was not presented to the organizers for
>> consideration as to if it would be of an unfair advantage. We have
>> survived for 20 years without the sudden need for gps etc. I thought is was
>> about using our ardf and orienteering skills. guess I was wrong.
>>
>> I for one, as little as it matters, am not in favor of adding these
>> devices to any revised Region ll rules. I made a start on creating
>> something for region II for our event. they were obviously not official. I
>> expect that with the current system it will take considerable time to get
>> this done.
>>
>> Bob, WA6EZV
>>
>>> On Sep 23, 2017 11:09 PM, "Gerald Boyd" <wb8wfk at covad.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> Charles.
>>>
>>> Just a FYI
>>>
>>> I saw Vadim 80 meter receiver at the championships and it had a GPS patch
>>> antenna on it.
>>> I wonder what magic software he is running in the background?
>>>
>>> Since this device has been used in USA championships without any
>>> opposition
>>> I think this opens the door on the digital devices questions.
>>>
>>> It's a receiver with some type of GPS enabled imbedded processor
>>> application
>>> being used in national and a region 2 championships. I wonder what the
>>> hidden features are. Does it give any navigation guidance?
>>>
>>> Pandora's box is now open.
>>>
>>> Dale, Joe this needs addressed.
>>>
>>> Jerry
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: ardf-bounces at kkn.net [mailto:ardf-bounces at kkn.net] On Behalf Of
>>> Charles Scharlau
>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2017 11:54 AM
>>> To: comments at ardf-r2.org; k0ov at homingin.com; Dale Hunt <wb6byu at arrl.net>;
>>> ardf at kkn.net
>>> Subject: [ARDF] Region 2 Rules Request - Q and A
>>>
>>> To address any confusion regarding the request for Region 2 ARDF rules
>>> that
>>> include provisions for the use of approved apps in smartphones and similar
>>> devices, I've created a list of "should-be-asked
>>> questions":
>>>
>>> http://openardf.org/index.php/2017/07/30/smartphones-in-ardf-sbaq/
>>>
>>> Comments, questions, and suggestions can be made within that blog.
>>> Just scroll down to "Leave a Reply" to post your comment. There is no need
>>> to reply using email.
>>>
>>> I urge the Region 2 ARDF leadership to address this request with an open
>>> mind, and a sense of urgency.
>>>
>>> 73,
>>> Charles
>>> NZ0I
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> ARDF mailing list
>>> ARDF at kkn.net
>>> http://www.kkn.net/mailman/listinfo/ardf
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> ARDF mailing list
>>> ARDF at kkn.net
>>> http://www.kkn.net/mailman/listinfo/ardf
>>>
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2017 18:51:51 -0500
> From: "Mike (KA5CVH) Urich" <mike at ka5cvh.com>
> Subject: Re: [ARDF] Region 2 Rules Request - Q and A
> To: Robert Frey <rallenfrey at gmail.com>
> Cc: comments at ardf-r2.org, "K0OV, Joe Moell" <k0ov at homingin.com>,
> Charles Scharlau <charles.scharlau at gmail.com>, ardf at kkn.net, "Hunt,
> Dale" <wb6byu at arrl.net>
> Message-ID:
> <CA+hFFP=kH7C+oZF5dPdepriwMh7TYToc9+iLAi1S2r20pTUSPQ at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
>> On Sun, Sep 24, 2017 at 8:00 AM, Robert Frey <rallenfrey at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I thought is was
>> about using our ardf and orienteering skills. guess I was wrong.
>
> Mike wrote
>
> While I have not been able to participate to any extent ... I love all
> forms of direction finding activities whether traditional fox hunts
> whether in vehicles or on foot and while I haven't done much
> orienteering since the lymphoma but I still dream about getting back
> active at some point ... so just take my comments with a grain of
> salt.
>
> As an ARES / PIO person who just went through Harvey and gave numerous
> interviews with radio stations and the league I emphasized our need
> for training to the "Lowest Common Denominator" mode communications
> for EmComm.
>
> My thoughts about ARDF fall along the same lines. I do not have a
> problem with an app on a phone that will take you back to the start,
> finish or your vehicle in the event you need it but IMHO these events
> should be about using our most basic skills to their fullest ... not
> depending upon any wizardry. Amateur radio is rapidly becoming a
> "utility operator" hobby with no basic electronic or RF skills ...
> just gadgets.
>
> The only tools we need are a radio receiver, a map, a compass ... and
> our BRAIN to process the data.
>
> YMMV
>
> --
> Mike Urich KA5CVH
> http://ka5cvh.com
>
> STX ASEC - Training
> STX: (A)PIC Dist 1 & 14
> PIO Harris County ARES
>
> We may be Volunteers,
> But we're professional.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2017 22:50:30 -0400
> From: Steve Stutman <steve at radiorobots.com>
> Subject: Re: [ARDF] Region 2 Rules Request - Q and A
> To: "Mike (KA5CVH) Urich" <mike at ka5cvh.com>
> Cc: comments at ardf-r2.org, "K0OV, Joe Moell" <k0ov at homingin.com>,
> Charles Scharlau <charles.scharlau at gmail.com>, ardf at kkn.net, "Hunt,
> Dale" <wb6byu at arrl.net>
> Message-ID:
> <CADb9tKNef8EFHrSC6E6ZkQNRFu2mkk8Ft-gXyDFanq0a+Roisw at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> I think Mike is spot on.
>
> There are many aspects of ARDF, just as there are many facets of HAM radio.
>
>
> Several years back I had great fun jogging through the Blue Hills in
> Boston with my compass, map clipboard, RX and tape measure ant.
>
> It was my first event and although I found a couple foxes, I, to my
> chagrin, did not win, hihi.
>
> One of the guys who coached me did win because he is very skilled and runs
> fast.
>
>
> Too much automata takes the sport out of Radiosport, I think.
>
> Sort of like self-driving Formula One cars.
>
> Some people might want to watch it, but t'isn't the same.
>
>
> If one wishes to sutomate, why not have course prep drones (UAVs) drop TXs
> and then have competitor drones auto -locate them?
>
> Easily controlled and viewed on phone with FPV.
>
>
> Certainly a competition, but no humans in the actual run.
>
> There are probably some guys in HF CW contests using Skimmers to drive an
> automated station.
>
> Perhaps fun to build, but not Radiosport, IMNSHO.
>
>
> Maybe there is a "traditional" class and an "assisted" class.
>
> Perhaps this has already been discussed.
>
>
> My thanks to all who keep ARDF going here.
>
> My middle-schooler just started running Cross Country.
>
> I think she would like to run an event one of these days.
>
>
> 73,
>
> Steve
>
> KL7JT/1
>
>
>
> <http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>
> Virus-free.
> www.avg.com
> <http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>
> <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>
> On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 7:51 PM, Mike (KA5CVH) Urich <mike at ka5cvh.com>
> wrote:
>
>>> On Sun, Sep 24, 2017 at 8:00 AM, Robert Frey <rallenfrey at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> I thought is was
>>> about using our ardf and orienteering skills. guess I was wrong.
>>
>> Mike wrote
>>
>> While I have not been able to participate to any extent ... I love all
>> forms of direction finding activities whether traditional fox hunts
>> whether in vehicles or on foot and while I haven't done much
>> orienteering since the lymphoma but I still dream about getting back
>> active at some point ... so just take my comments with a grain of
>> salt.
>>
>> As an ARES / PIO person who just went through Harvey and gave numerous
>> interviews with radio stations and the league I emphasized our need
>> for training to the "Lowest Common Denominator" mode communications
>> for EmComm.
>>
>> My thoughts about ARDF fall along the same lines. I do not have a
>> problem with an app on a phone that will take you back to the start,
>> finish or your vehicle in the event you need it but IMHO these events
>> should be about using our most basic skills to their fullest ... not
>> depending upon any wizardry. Amateur radio is rapidly becoming a
>> "utility operator" hobby with no basic electronic or RF skills ...
>> just gadgets.
>>
>> The only tools we need are a radio receiver, a map, a compass ... and
>> our BRAIN to process the data.
>>
>> YMMV
>>
>> --
>> Mike Urich KA5CVH
>> http://ka5cvh.com
>>
>> STX ASEC - Training
>> STX: (A)PIC Dist 1 & 14
>> PIO Harris County ARES
>>
>> We may be Volunteers,
>> But we're professional.
>> _______________________________________________
>> ARDF mailing list
>> ARDF at kkn.net
>> http://www.kkn.net/mailman/listinfo/ardf
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2017 16:07:12 +1000
> From: Bruce <abruceperson at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [ARDF] Region 2 Rules Request - Q and A
> To: "Mike (KA5CVH) Urich" <mike at ka5cvh.com>, Steve Stutman
> <steve at radiorobots.com>
> Cc: ardf at kkn.net, "Hunt, Dale" <wb6byu at arrl.net>,
> comments at ardf-r2.org, k0ov at homingin.com, Charles Scharlau
> <charles.scharlau at gmail.com>
> Message-ID: <ooto85p6jfdebvaerfjc9226.1506487101579 at email.android.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
> Since I'm not in R2 my thoughts on GPS technology are irrelevant.
>
> I disagree with the statement that all skill is removed using technology.
>
> Afterall, many use YNG sniffers that significantly aid in the use of a sniffer to get bearings. This technology is considered fine. It also allows a less skilled entry point into the sport, which is not something to denigrate worth such low numbers competing in R2 & R3.
>
> I also foxhunt. Our car has technology and Gps all over it. Far more than Vadim's sniffer. This doesn't ensure success though ; the core abilities of navigation, interpretation and planning are what is required and still come to the fore. A skilled team with basic equipment can still outperform it (just like an experienced wielder of lo-tech sniffer can in ARDF).
>
> So, it comes down more to a trade-off. Keep it 'pure' in sort of arbitrarily defined way, or allow *some* innovation that may also allow more participants (and interested technologists). Think STEM.
>
> Cheers,
> Bruce
>
> ---- Steve Stutman wrote ----
>
>> I think Mike is spot on.
>>
>> There are many aspects of ARDF, just as there are many facets of HAM radio.
>>
>>
>> Several years back I had great fun jogging through the Blue Hills in
>> Boston with my compass, map clipboard, RX and tape measure ant.
>>
>> It was my first event and although I found a couple foxes, I, to my
>> chagrin, did not win, hihi.
>>
>> One of the guys who coached me did win because he is very skilled and runs
>> fast.
>>
>>
>> Too much automata takes the sport out of Radiosport, I think.
>>
>> Sort of like self-driving Formula One cars.
>>
>> Some people might want to watch it, but t'isn't the same.
>>
>>
>> If one wishes to sutomate, why not have course prep drones (UAVs) drop TXs
>> and then have competitor drones auto -locate them?
>>
>> Easily controlled and viewed on phone with FPV.
>>
>>
>> Certainly a competition, but no humans in the actual run.
>>
>> There are probably some guys in HF CW contests using Skimmers to drive an
>> automated station.
>>
>> Perhaps fun to build, but not Radiosport, IMNSHO.
>>
>>
>> Maybe there is a "traditional" class and an "assisted" class.
>>
>> Perhaps this has already been discussed.
>>
>>
>> My thanks to all who keep ARDF going here.
>>
>> My middle-schooler just started running Cross Country.
>>
>> I think she would like to run an event one of these days.
>>
>>
>> 73,
>>
>> Steve
>>
>> KL7JT/1
>>
>>
>>
>> <http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>
>> Virus-free.
>> www.avg.com
>> <http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>
>> <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>>
>> On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 7:51 PM, Mike (KA5CVH) Urich <mike at ka5cvh.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>> On Sun, Sep 24, 2017 at 8:00 AM, Robert Frey <rallenfrey at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I thought is was
>>>> about using our ardf and orienteering skills. guess I was wrong.
>>>
>>> Mike wrote
>>>
>>> While I have not been able to participate to any extent ... I love all
>>> forms of direction finding activities whether traditional fox hunts
>>> whether in vehicles or on foot and while I haven't done much
>>> orienteering since the lymphoma but I still dream about getting back
>>> active at some point ... so just take my comments with a grain of
>>> salt.
>>>
>>> As an ARES / PIO person who just went through Harvey and gave numerous
>>> interviews with radio stations and the league I emphasized our need
>>> for training to the "Lowest Common Denominator" mode communications
>>> for EmComm.
>>>
>>> My thoughts about ARDF fall along the same lines. I do not have a
>>> problem with an app on a phone that will take you back to the start,
>>> finish or your vehicle in the event you need it but IMHO these events
>>> should be about using our most basic skills to their fullest ... not
>>> depending upon any wizardry. Amateur radio is rapidly becoming a
>>> "utility operator" hobby with no basic electronic or RF skills ...
>>> just gadgets.
>>>
>>> The only tools we need are a radio receiver, a map, a compass ... and
>>> our BRAIN to process the data.
>>>
>>> YMMV
>>>
>>> --
>>> Mike Urich KA5CVH
>>> http://ka5cvh.com
>>>
>>> STX ASEC - Training
>>> STX: (A)PIC Dist 1 & 14
>>> PIO Harris County ARES
>>>
>>> We may be Volunteers,
>>> But we're professional.
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> ARDF mailing list
>>> ARDF at kkn.net
>>> http://www.kkn.net/mailman/listinfo/ardf
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> ARDF mailing list
>> ARDF at kkn.net
>> http://www.kkn.net/mailman/listinfo/ardf
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> ARDF mailing list
> ARDF at kkn.net
> http://www.kkn.net/mailman/listinfo/ardf
>
>
> End of ARDF Digest, Vol 128, Issue 2
> ************************************
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